Re: Is human nature inherantly violent?

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Posted by Howard Beale at on March 31, 2001 at 19:32:48:

In Reply to: Is human nature inherantly violent? posted by Isis on March 31, 2001 at 17:23:37:

: I question that hypothesis. For if humans are naturally violent, we would expect to find the most extreme and frequent expressions of violence in the cultures that are least socialized, most "primitive". As a matter of fact, the opposite is true -- those cultures that are most "civilized" and have the most complex social systems are the most violent.

: Plus, while it is true that natural processes include death as well as life, it is very rare that one can find a case of what we could call real violence in any species other than human (exclude involuntary biological reactions such as the need to eat, and cases of mothers protecting their young from harm, and you'll find little remains other than occasional alpha male fights in wolves and primates). Therefore if humans are violent, I feel it has less to do with nature than with nurture.

: But why I'm discussing this here, I have no clue.

: -- Isis

I just think that people are more to blame for the 'historical facts' you alluded to than 'mainstream religions' are. That's all.

: : : Here's the thing; you're perfectly entitled to question any religion and do any research on it that you want, drawing your own conclusions as you please, but in NO WAY does that mean that Jason should have to explain Scientology or justify his participation in the religion. Take your questions to L. Ron, directly.

: : : If some Catholic nut killed his wife and kids tomorrow and claimed God told him to do it, would it be good form to come on here and demand Kevin justify his membership in this "dangerous" religion? No boys and girls, it really wouldn't.

: : : Let's not forget that the mainstream religions have -- and these are not alleged crimes, but historical facts -- killed more people, individually and in massive wars and genocidal efforts, than any alternative sect has ever even been accused of doing.

: : Bah. I blame human nature.

: : : So let's show the guy some freakin' respect already? Is it too much to ask? You got a problem with Scientology, take it up with Scientology, not Mr. Lee.

: : : -- Isis

: : : : i guess i'm going to be the only one who has the nerve to speak my mind freely, at the expense of possibly insulting a celebrity, & refuse to apologize for it.

: : : : someone, i don't remember who, made a disparaging remark about scientology.
: : : : jason, perhaps somewhat insulted, responded accordingly, very tactfully asking that he not be judged based on his religious faith. fair enough. but i think it's very important to remember that when one's religion of choice is questioned, or even criticized, that the individual him/herself is not necessarily the target. myself, being an agnostic, i question EVERY religion. & though i find religion utterly unappealing from a personal standpoint, i cannot - & will not - ignore it's significance in other people's lives. thus i do not form opinions based on another's religion.
: : : : but i do believe that religion itself can & should be questioned. granted, i'm not a scientologist, nor have i spoken in depth to any member of this church. but scientology, if what i've read about it can be believed, is a very dangerous, manipulative organization. people have died while undergoing this org's rituals. mental abuse is commonplace. you are required to sign billion year contracts (to insure that you & any future "life" you may have belongs to the church indefinitely). it's whacky. it's scary. why *shouldn't* anyone ask: "what the fuck is going on in that place??" i think it's a perfectly acceptable question that warrants an honest answer.

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